Lucie Caswell - FAC: Forever Amending Copyright
Lucie Caswell is the CEO of FAC - the Featured Artists Coalition, the UK group representing recording artists at the highest levels of policy-making. The organisation is now ten years old, and the conversation about copyright law and the way in which it needs to be amended, updated or overhauled in the light of new technologies and cultural shifts is very much an ongoing one.
Lucie discussed the big issues for intellectual property in the creative sector, what’s at stake for artists and creators, and also what the impending Brexit might mean for everyone in that ecosystem.
AI Transcription
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
featured artists, artists, music, business, copyright, conversation, coalition, organisation, people, music industry, community, mtf, copyright law, uk, technology, interests, musicians, representing, records, future
SPEAKERS
Lucie Caswell, Andrew Dubber
Andrew Dubber
Hi, I’m Andrew Dubber. I’m the director of Music Tech Fest, and this is the MTF podcast. I was lucky enough to get a chance to sit down and spend a bit of time with Lucie Caswell, who I imagine is pretty busy these days. She’s the CEO of the featured artists coalition, who are essentially a lobbying organisation representing in policy discussions, the musicians whose records you buy and stream and as with anything policy related in the UK right now, there are one or two things going on. The FCC board is incredibly impressive with a few brilliant mtfs in the bunch too, including Imogen Heap, John Robb and Marcus O’Dair. See previous podcasts. Katie Melua, Howard Jones, Annie Lennox, Nick Mason, Sandy Shaw, Ed O’Brien from Radiohead, Jeremy Pritchard from everything everything. There’s some solid representation right across popular music, and with management by Lucy, who’s had something of a stellar career in music, publishing and licencing. Managing promoting digital business management consulting on social impact and advising on policy. We had a bit of a deep dive on intellectual property and how technologies affect the music industry ecosystem, where the copyright law is in any way fit for purpose, and also what the impending Brexit might mean for UK artists, the music industry as a whole and frankly, the ongoing status of Britain as any sort of a cultural beacon. General Manager and chief policy officer of the UK music Publishers Association, and CEO of the featured artists coalition. This is Lucie Caswell. Lucie Caswell, thank you so much for joining us for the podcast today. Thank you for having me. You’re very welcome. Um, you are at the featured artists coalition, you run the featured artists coalition. What’s it for? The featured
Lucie Caswell
The Featured Artists coalition is essentially the trade body for all recorded performing artists. At the UK Initially, it was created 10 years ago this year by those rabble rousing artists like Billy Bragg and Dave Rowntree, from Blur, who wanted the artists to have their own seat at the business table, to have a say in how the business around them is run rather than be talked out or for by by the other players. And that’s exactly what they established. And since then, it’s grown from establishing that seat at the table into a really strong community of artists is the only organisation that is run by artists, for artists, and it will remain so. But it’s growing as much as a movement as a trade body, which is lovely to see by featured
Andrew Dubber
artist, do you mean the people with their name on the cover?
Lucie Caswell
Yes, the guys whose records you stream records you may buy the main artist who produces that?
Andrew Dubber
Why is there a distinction between those ones? And say the session musicians or the people who are not, you know, the people on the front cover of the record but might perform on the record? Is there? Is there like a reason for the distinction that they’re featured?
Lucie Caswell
Well, it the the name comes from, I believe that ppl distinction between those artists and exactly that the session musicians. So it’s the lead artists that they’re controlling artists as opposed to those who appear on the record as session players. Yeah.
Andrew Dubber
What was the cause for this? Obviously, you know, just having a seat at the table is isn’t in and of itself a reason to start something? You presumably you want to achieve something by having a seat at the table? What was the agenda? I
Lucie Caswell
think the agenda, the very initial agenda, which kick started the need, actually, yes, of itself to have a seat at the table was seeing how the market was changing to digital and feeling that the artists really needed to have a say and how policy and how industry and how contracts, reflected that and evolved with it? Did they take the artists interest with them, as well as the business interests and like most things, lore is rather slower than creativity. So these things can sometimes be difficult, and they wanted to make sure that those who are making money around music, their music, knew that what their interests were and that
Andrew Dubber
that went for them to write are the interests of these artists, economic interests we’re talking about?
Lucie Caswell
There’s all sorts of interests Yes, economics. So obviously, you know, the everyone around the music industry is making money out of that music and between the artists and those fans, that’s what the business is for. But it’s more than that. It’s also is the direction of the music business, or in the interests of those who feel it is the direction of their music industry. Caring about those artists, does it look after those music makers? Does it respect those music makers? And does it think about their futures as well as the business does it think about where they are at the heart of the ecosystem? Are they a consequence?
Andrew Dubber
How are we doing? Are we now in a good place? has this kind of been solved?
Lucie Caswell
as an industry is evolving, I don’t think you’ve ever sold something. And I think if you are creative, you don’t want to solve it, you want to keep evolving and keep creating. So in that regard, there is always something to be involved in. And there is always something to do. That said, the featured artists coalition and the artists it represents have real respect. Now within the industry, it is someone that policymakers come to they don’t just go to the obvious stakeholders. And having that place, having an equal hand in the way that decisions are made and evolutions happen is really important. And I hope, both the existing success and the future of the business,
Andrew Dubber
how the interests of say, the BPI, or the prs, or the futures coalition, how do they differ? And is it always tension between those positions? Or, you know, is everybody just trying to get all of the money for themselves? Or? Or is it that that there are just different kind of, I guess, perspectives that get brought to the table?
Lucie Caswell
I think there are inevitably different perspectives. different businesses have different business priorities. different representations represent different communities, and everybody wants to make sure that they look after those communities and those interests. Sometimes they’re aligned, sometimes they aren’t, we’d like to think that the direction of the music industry here is for more Music for a sustainable business and for the future of the music business. So in that regard, we’re aligned, but how you get there, can have tensions. It can have collaborations, we have formed the Council of music makers, which include the writers, producers, artists, that also that we have a common voice for that, if you like that area of the creative side of the business. And there we find our common ground, which isn’t always the case. But it’s great to work together on that. And it gives us strength in numbers. But even across the different parts of the sector, we find agreement and strength where we have it and we fight our corner when we don’t. Right.
Andrew Dubber
So why is it you? How did that journey happen?
Lucie Caswell
Good question. I have been in the music business for over 15 years, I think I started looking after songwriters. And in studios, I know that’s not true. I started going to gigs, like everybody else. And worked in publishing and a lot of time and rights and a lot of time negotiating rights and actually on all sides of the table. So perhaps it’s because as the as the industry evolves, and they’ve featured artists coalition has established itself in the business, you know, it’s they there’s a maybe there’s a recognition that it’s always a negotiation. So that has been useful, particularly in things like the copyright directive debate, and other sort of cross sectional issues. But it was also that time for me, you know, I wanted to negotiate with something that had real passion and had a community and had a real purpose, potentially, rather than just one deal after the next so stars aligned.
Andrew Dubber
So do you see yourself as much as as a negotiator? That’s, that’s what you’re good at.
Lucie Caswell
It’s something I have to do a lot. But I would like to think that in a creative business with lots of different players, you know, there’s always a conversation. It takes more than that, though, you know, it takes understanding your community, I’m employed by them to help progress their agenda and to make their voices heard. So I’m very much in the hands of those artists and rather proud to be so so I’m learning all the time as well.
Andrew Dubber
I remember when the Digital Economy Act was being discussed, and there was a lot of, I guess, conversation between different artists with different perspectives on what should happen, you know, how do you as a collective body come to an agreement about what the featured artist coalition stance is on something that’s as controversial as, you know, negotiating things like copyright in the digital age?
Lucie Caswell
Well, we say exactly that we come together. I think if you’re a community, you are lots of different people. So by default, you’re going to have different points of view. But together, you can find out where the common ground is, you have a meeting of minds on what you’re trying to do. You’re trying to give up the day job and live with your music and love your music and have your fans hear your music and, and get paid for your music. So there is a lot of common ground in that. And it’s great to understand how you get from A to B in ways that take on board lots of different perspectives. Otherwise you might miss something you might do something that wasn’t helpful to someone in your community. And you can only know what those issues are if you talk to people, right?
Andrew Dubber
Is there a sort of a cutoff point at which it becomes advantageous for people to have, say, for instance, a hard line on copyright? And for other people who are trying to get, for instance, maximum, you know, communication with as many people as possible, who go No, no, no, let’s loosen the restrictions on these things. Is that the tension that happens within that community? Or, you know, something? Other than that?
Lucie Caswell
I think it’s a different conversation, to say that access is the opposite to restriction or that any controls over access?
Andrew Dubber
I mean, but but I see what you’re saying, but access and restriction, right
Lucie Caswell
I’m not that they are actually I think it’s a question of how well do you know that technology? Do you have to inhibit access to monetize and protect things properly? No, not necessarily. Perhaps you just have to have smarter technology. And you have to have an appreciation of copyright rather than something that isn’t owned by someone else, or you also have to have a sort of equal sense of responsibility for what you are broadcasting. And we have that in debate on very many levels, you know, what are the public being given? Or what are they exposed to? And in many other conversations, there seems to be an obvious answer that there is some responsibilities there. So why should that not be the case for something someone else has created?
Andrew Dubber
I guess my question, like, I’ve got 1000 questions, but they would boil down to is copyright fit for purpose?
Lucie Caswell
copyrights or copyright law?
Andrew Dubber
Good question. Copyright law is what I’m talking about. So it’s current copyright law, fit for purpose, do we need to amend it? Or do we need to throw it away and start again,
Lucie Caswell
from exactly the conversation that we’re having now. But it’s more than that. It’s also, as they say, the law is much lower than creativity. So there comes a point where you have such a change in consumption in the way that the market works, it would be weird not to update your law, in alignment with that. So this process has to happen. It always happens in markets over different generations and different evolutions. Doesn’t mean it’s an easy conversation. Sure, because you have to understand the push and pull that you describe. But everybody is living in the same ecosystem. So we’d like to think we can find a solution. But that solution has to make it sustainable to keep producing that music.
Andrew Dubber
Right. I’ve had a lot of conversations in the past with sort of copyright reformers, and I would kind of consider myself one, to a large extent, but there is a real debate, I think, to be had about whether the thing to do is to update copyright, or to start again, and go right, what are we trying to achieve with this? What are the first principles? And what can we achieve if we write the rules again, from the beginning, and it does seem to me very much that legislators because of, you know, whether it’s about, you know, lawyers trying to keep their their income ticking over or, you know, whatever the the agenda might be, but it very much seems like every time we have these conversations, we end up just going no, we can just make a tweak, we can make another tweak we can make. And it seems like you know, we’re just sort of adding features to something that actually really isn’t doing the job that everybody would really like it to do.
Lucie Caswell
Well, maybe that’s why the conversation, only about Europe has happened for over two years, because it’s more than a week. But it also is because it is conversation that includes so many people and music is just one part of that. And that, thankfully has taken time. And I say thankfully, because otherwise it would be a tweak, or just a single action. But we do also have to remember, in the same way, as we have to remember this business isn’t in one city, we have to remember that this is is a global conversation. But this particular part of it is happening on a regional basis, you know, you get lost in the bubble sometimes. So we have more to think about than just this one. region, we also have regions where copyright law doesn’t exist. So they’re exactly there. Do you have a blank sheet of paper? Or do you have ketchup? And I think that’s an opportunity to think about what you’re doing right? And what you wouldn’t be the same again, right? For
Andrew Dubber
sure. How would you know when you’ve been successful in copyrights at all? Were for the point of a featured artist. Yeah, but let’s start with let’s start with copyright. You know, if you are sort of in this really kind of complex area of copyright law, and there are people’s interests at stake and all these things, how would you know you’ve done a good job.
Lucie Caswell
I’m going to put a we on good job there because I wouldn’t take the credit or the wait for the spread. I think a good job is where we have a really flourishing. I’m going to use that word ecosystem again for music, and that’s not as abstract as it might sound. This is something that really has to work for music makers. innovators, technology, which is changing faster than this door can. For the future of all of those things to work together, as they already work together, we’ll be making something sustainable for everybody. And that is both a problem and the success in it.
Andrew Dubber
Can you sort of future proof? I mean, is it possible to set things up so that regardless of what changes, the kind of the fundamental principles that are at stake, are at least looked after,
Lucie Caswell
we’d like to think you could feature proof principles. But that doesn’t mean that you can second guess, all those other politics evolutions technologies. And I’d love to think that we are only baby stepping into technology. So I’d like to think we can’t predict a lot of things. And those things will change the politics as well, because they change the money, they change the priorities. So I don’t think you can future proof, the economic framework, which goes with the legal framework, and if you need to keep that flexible part of some of the problems arise when things aren’t inclined to evolve. You know, these things Lauren, and copyright aren’t iterative in the same way that innovation is, but you should be able to remember your direction of travel while you’re trying to do it. And that’s the principal argument.
Andrew Dubber
What are the big battles right now.
Lucie Caswell
We have big battles on very rational basis. The out pricing of music, businesses in favour of real estate is a big problem, call it survival of music venues, but also music businesses, I think that’s a conversation that culture shouldn’t even be in it’s very strange value comparison. We also still have issues with artists almost paying to play, which is extraordinary. But it also reflects on the pressures on music venues, we have large and growing issues, I think, with mental health and welfare of artists, which have very, very many reasons we don’t have time to go into now. But what we can go into is that there needs to be a greater responsibility and awareness of that shared amongst their business. And then we have huge, huge issues like the global environmental climate change issues, that music has a big stake in because it makes a really big difference, it makes a big impact. And it can also make some really good influencing power in that way, as well. So we’re working with people on all fronts to look at the money in the pockets of artists, the futures of artists and so much bigger futures as
Andrew Dubber
the the the ecology side of things. Yes, is interesting, because it seems like something that a featured artist coalition, you know, but essentially famous musicians who are on the front covers of, you know, album sleeves, is it their job to make sure that the environments okay for the future? Or is this something that everybody should be taking care of? I think
Lucie Caswell
it’s in every bird, everybody thing. But where you have an impact, you have a responsibility. So no, we’re not the only group who should have that responsibility. But no, artists are inspiring their leaders, they’re innovators. And all of those things are important in that conversation, in the same way as they are, as I say, from the economics to the welfare of of artists, it’s everybody’s responsibility, but you we like to think we can lead by example.
Andrew Dubber
So how do you become represented by the featured artists coalition, presumably there, you know, you have to have sold a certain number of records, or you need to become a member somehow, what’s the what’s the infrastructure, join us
Lucie Caswell
just join us there, you can join for free, you can join for five pounds a month, in which case, lots of other things are free and support and you can get involved in the way the organisation is run, advocate on issues you care about. Be involved in the way that we support other artists, fundamentally, it’s a peer to peer community. So if that’s appealing or needed, then join,
Andrew Dubber
what’s the thing you’re most proud of? In your time there?
Lucie Caswell
Oh, the artists hundred percent. And that I mean, I didn’t even pause long enough to remember that to say, I mean, it’s, it is a really, really inspiring community and have such different innovative creative people. I think I’m always on catch up. So I don’t think it’s leading I think of learning. I think I’m going
Andrew Dubber
to ask the same question a slightly different way. What are you most proud about that you’ve achieved yourself as part of your role at the featured artists coalition.
Lucie Caswell
Whether it’s achieved or continued, I get the sense now that the featured artists coalition is a force to be reckoned with in a good way. And whether That’s around the UK music board table or it’s internationally. So we’re asked for our opinion, we’re asked for our advice.
Andrew Dubber
And that’s what we need to do to make some change. How does it scale internationally? I mean, a featured artist coalition is very much a British institution,
Lucie Caswell
or there are similar organisations all
Andrew Dubber
over the world that you’re partnered with, that you collaborate with.
Lucie Caswell
We’re part of the international artists organisation, which have 11 members, currently European and looking further afield, where you have a community of artists you can have an organisation of supporting artists, and we’d like to extend that everywhere in the world, but it’s already growing.
Andrew Dubber
is not being part of Europe, something that’s troubling you guys?
Lucie Caswell
Oh, immensely. Yes.
Andrew Dubber
In what way?
Lucie Caswell
There isn’t an aspect of functioning business that isn’t about the music industry, you know, there’s movement, IP, trade, communication data, every single facet is important to music. So you can imagine the range of conversations there that we need to have. But there’s also the aspect of what does this say about us, music is immediately called upon by politicians as representing that so called soft power, you know, the way that you describe your country is in lyrical and creative terms. And yet, if you cut off those livelihoods, cut off the essential touring abilities for ourselves, these make them very difficult. And more importantly, perhaps you make people feel unwelcome, whether it’s coming to perform here or at work here or collaborate, you know, all of those things are an anathema to music makers. So both in cultural and economic terms, it’s, of course, it’s a real concern to everybody in our business, though, here that we do agree.
Andrew Dubber
Yeah, for sure. As a lobbying organisation, which I guess is probably a fair description of what you are, what would you most like the government to change now? and Britain? Or would you like them to do that would radically improve a lot of musicians?
Lucie Caswell
If we moved on from the practical, don’t do that. And there are many, many levels that the government needs to act to support music futures, and we’re looking at access to music equally from school aged 3d sustainable careers. But perhaps the common thread is validating music, whether it’s the course you take at GCSE, or it’s the job you take later in life, or it’s the career that you try to sustain it. Arts and Culture in the UK seems to have dropped down the political priority line very differently to other countries who hold their culture is the highest achievement. And until that respect, that validation is is reclaimed. I think all of those economic and social issues will continue to be a struggle.
Andrew Dubber
Is Britain in some kind of trouble? Because of that? I mean, you say that there are other places that hold arts and culture to the highest level, what is this doing to Britain, that that not holding those things in that high regard as causing?
Lucie Caswell
Well, the bit that I suppose probably gets politicians attention more quickly is that it will lose them a lot of money. You know, this isn’t massively outperforming sector, it’s a sector that really contributes well over it scale to the economy, it also contributes to other areas of the economy, whether it’s hospitality, or from hotels, to taxis, to whatever it might be that makes you go to a place joy, a place and stay there.
Andrew Dubber
What’s the bad thing that could happen by not, you know, holding these things in high regard, so many
Lucie Caswell
things to do. So they’ve blew my own mind. And I think one thing that we actually underestimate in these conversations is keeping the talent that we have, we built so much on this being a call and culturally rich place to be. But if in both cultural and financial terms, you make that difficult, why would our creative stay? And for all the conversations in Brexit, about moving people in and out of the UK? I think what are we doing to encourage people to stay here? What are we doing to encourage people to take those careers and to enjoy arts? And that that I think that talent drain is an issue that we don’t talk about enough, right?
Andrew Dubber
And touring is hard enough as it is already. Exactly. Yeah.
Lucie Caswell
That’s essential enough as it is already. Absolutely. It’s
Andrew Dubber
been an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you for having me. Cheers. That’s Lucie Caswell, and that’s the MTF podcast. We’re counting down the days to MTF Örebro where MTF will be in residency in academia at Örebro University, running AI labs. pushing the boundaries of accessibility and creativity, and also hosting another MTF track athon. This time with Graham Massey from 808 state setting the challenge leading the judging panel and doing a spot of mentoring along the way. He’s also going to be jumping up on stage for a short solo set that happens to coincide with the release of the brand new 808 state album this month. And he’s also going to do what he normally does at Music Tech Fest, which is to collaborate, improvise, and experiment with other brilliant musicians, innovators, and creatives. Now, if you want to know more about MTF Örebro or other upcoming events and initiatives, make sure you sign up to the mailing list so that you get these newsletters that we send out from time to time. We’re not going to jam your inbox with hundreds of messages, just the important stuff as it comes to hand. Pretty much everyone we featured on the podcast is signed up. So you’ll be in great company. That’s Music Tech fest.net slash newsletter. In the meantime, have a great week and we’ll talk soon Cheers.
