Tobias Edman - Space for Everyone
Dr Tobias Edman is Head of Innovation and Public Benefit at the Swedish National Space Agency, part of the larger European Space Agency. His job is to take space data and ensure that it’s useful - to business, to society and to the planet.
Tobias is a visionary: he sees a world where we’re able to collaborate and make open source space hardware, discover the origins of the universe, clean the skies of space junk and pretty much solve everything from agriculture to transportation and maybe even politics - by getting some real perspective.
He’s also on the steering board of the Industry Commons Foundation, the non-profit organisation that grew out of the MTF innovation ecosystem to put culture and creativity at the core of industry innovation.
AI Transcription
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
data, satellite, space agency, space, innovation, spacecraft, part, spaceship, music, european space agency, interesting, based, earth, understand, landscapes, sorts, interested, tech fest, mtf, collecting
SPEAKERS
Andrew Dubber, Tobias Edman
Andrew Dubber
Hi, I’m Dubber. I’m the director of Music Tech Fest. And this is episode number 50. of the MTF podcast, which is not bad going. This week, let’s go to space. All of us, we can all do it, thanks to the work in part have to be us admin, head of innovation for the Swedish National Space Agency, and member of the steering board of the Industry Commons Foundation, which grew out of the MTF innovation ecosystem. I met up with Tobias in Stockholm to talk about the kinds of innovations you can get from space data, whether we should be preparing ourselves for life on another planet, and also how all industries can collaborate, share information, and put themselves in orbit, literally.
Tobias Edman
I’m Tobias Edman. I’m a head of innovation and public benefit at Swedish National Space Agency.
Andrew Dubber
And what does that kind of entail? What’s the day job?
Tobias Edman
The day job is a lot of meetings, actually. And but I what I mean, the aims and goals of the job is to help with innovation within the space sector, especially on data exploitation and observation analysis. That’s the main target area, I would say,
Andrew Dubber
right? Because when you hear innovation for space agency, you think of, you know, new types of spaceships and those sorts of things. But you deal primarily with data.
Tobias Edman
Yes, it’s been a lot of effort put into space infrastructure, where the space spacecraft and the satellites are part of it. And they are actually giving quite a lot of data. And the data is a bit under utilised, I would say that our great potential of developing algorithms to make new services from the data.
Andrew Dubber
So I mean, give me an example. What sort of thing would you like to see?
Tobias Edman
I like to see, for example, it I mean, it is to some extent already used, it’s used in agriculture, and fisheries and forestry, but the analysis could be much better. So for agriculture, there is a really good use to decide how much fertilisers should be spread on the fields. But if it was utilised, even more and more farmers used it, then they could learn from each other, how to manage the fields in the best way. And you could train the algorithms actually based on huge amount of data to give better prescriptions of fertilisers, for example, or making good city planning, or smart cities and so on.
Andrew Dubber
Because the space data thing, I think it’s really interesting, because when you’re not sort of super familiar with that world, and you think of space agency, you think of space data, you think of looking upwards. So you think of looking at the stars and looking out, but most of what you do seems to be going up really high and looking down.
Tobias Edman
Yes, there’s a lot of things going on looking out as well. But it’s really a huge part of infrastructure is looking down as that gives the best perspective actually. And you can cover those enormous areas. If you should collect the data that you can collect to the satellite with drones or aeroplanes, for example, then you should need the real armadas as the satellites are so fast up there.
Andrew Dubber
Okay. I’ve got a question about satellites, because this is something I’ve wondered for a while. Is there the sort of the nightmare collision scenario looming? For so many vehicles up? They’re sort of spinning around the Earth?
Tobias Edman
Yeah, there is actually a kind of, there was an incident in beginning of September when one of the European Space Agency’s satellites, they were, it was almost a collision. I think it was like 300 metres away from SpaceX satellite. And, I mean, there is the potential for because
Andrew Dubber
you can’t swerve swerve. You can’t sort of get out of the way. Yeah,
Tobias Edman
yes, yes, it does. So they’ve made made a manoeuvre. Uh huh. So the, the oldest European satellite moved away from the orbit that I put on the small rocket damages that have and then just little down a bit, then moved back
Andrew Dubber
is reassuring to know they can turn and flight but there’s also a lot of junk out there presumably to.
Tobias Edman
Yes, millions of pieces. So junk.
Andrew Dubber
Does that worry you? It worries me I have to say.
Tobias Edman
Yeah, I mean, it was we have some examples. We have a really huge European satellite as well. It’s almost bigger. So London, double decker. And it’s up there and it’s dead. So it’s just going in orbit round around around
Andrew Dubber
in a decaying orbit.
Tobias Edman
Yeah, it’s coming down slowly. But I mean, before that, if it gets if that one Hit by another satellite, then there would be a real problem, because then this little orbit path would be closed, actually, until everything had swelled down.
Andrew Dubber
Well, okay, and like you say there are like a million pieces up there. Is anyone tracking them all? Yes. Is that your job? No,
Tobias Edman
that’s not my job. We actually, we actually have a, one of the guys at the office is responsible for space junk. Wow. Or the space situation, awareness so that he’s working with that. We are not taking ourselves to space agency, but there are other agencies to track them. So they use radars to track all the objects to know where they are, yes or no. Should I worry? No, you don’t need to worry. I would say it’s, I mean, the space is really huge. And I mean, other things just falling down that that don’t hurt us. It’s I mean, it’s abandoned as far as you can worry about the infrastructure, of course, but I think it’s rather fall under control. Most other satellites has this manoeuvre ability so they can move away.
Andrew Dubber
Okay. Yeah, the failure under control isn’t all that reassuring. But it is mostly the infrastructure thing I’m thinking of, because we lose GPS or we lose, you know, satellite communications, that that radically changes things on the ground for us, surely.
Tobias Edman
Yes, definitely. That would be disastrous, really, if, but often, it’s not all the I mean, this will be a specific orbit areas and so on, that would be the most damaged. Okay.
Andrew Dubber
Okay. I’ll be I’ll be somewhat reassured. Yeah,
Tobias Edman
I think you should be somewhat reassured. And there was a research going on to how to get up there and clean space. Well, if a satellite dies, for example, to be able to have other satellites that go up and retrieve them and put them out of orbit, okay, just either pushing outwards, or inwards.
Andrew Dubber
Okay, so you’re up there collecting data. I mean, you’re not personally collecting data, but but your metal representatives in the sky, right there collecting data, what sort of data is being collected?
Tobias Edman
It’s all kind of data, it’s, we have this. I mean, Europe has this large Copernicus programme, which collects a lot of environmental data. And they do it with different kinds of sensors. So it’s radar satellites, that can see through the clouds, we get really good views of the sea surface, and objects on the surface, and so on. And also, you can follow in millimetres, how much land is rising or sinking? different parts of the world? So. So that’s one kind of data, where can you follow is infrastructure? Are
Andrew Dubber
we going up or down?
Tobias Edman
Sweden is going mainly up, yeah, I know it is going down. But then you can have parts. For example, if you have in cities, if you have built a pier or something, build something on the seat on the seabed, that could be going down quite fast, actually. Okay. And it’s also infrastructure, like railways, if the railways and grounded in a sufficient way, then possibly a rail can be sinking and parts can be rising, right. And it’s also follows how much water, groundwater there is, if it’s low groundwater, then all the surfaces, sinking, and then if it’s a lot of water, then the surface can rise again. And then we have the optical satellites, more or less like a digital camera. Okay, but it’s also
Andrew Dubber
I’m thinking Google Earth, that sort of thing.
Tobias Edman
Yeah, disco glasses really high, high resolution. And then you have different in compared to a camera, you catch the light in a lot of different wavelengths. So you can see things that you can’t see otherwise, you’re looking to the ultraviolet wavelengths, for example, which we can see, then you can see parts of positive ocean that would be invisible. Otherwise, for example, and if you go into the infrared domains of light, then you have a lot of effects on vegetation.
Andrew Dubber
So it’s measurements, essentially, yeah,
Tobias Edman
it’s essentially measurements. And you can mostly see an assignment kind of, you can make some kind of images of the measurements, even if they aren’t really images, you get the data, and then you construct an image from the data.
Andrew Dubber
And what are you looking for when you’re looking outwards from Earth?
Tobias Edman
outwards? It’s the birth of the universe. So this could be like that, that you’re looking on. Like the black holes and the how they are created. can learn about solar system, looking at the sun, the planets. It’s a I mean, it’s really it’s hard to define what you don’t look at, I would say yeah, in space, but it’s it’s really, from everything from Most of Jupiter two, what is the universe? Actually?
Andrew Dubber
Is there a plan? Or do people just kind of follow their curiosity?
Tobias Edman
I guess it’s both actually that they follow the curiosity, and then they make the plans based on their curiosity and really bright people sitting down. Just knowing that, oh, I don’t understand that really. Or we have this, this theory here on how the universe works. I want to test it,
Andrew Dubber
right? And then
Tobias Edman
they come up with is really genius plans on really huge instruments to try to see how old is the universe, for example,
Andrew Dubber
how do you end up there was sort of kid way.
Tobias Edman
I was actually always kind of interested in science, and interested, was in biology. So in biology, I’m not a physicist or something interested in landscapes and the movements of animals and how things are connected. And then I came to your graphical analysis and Earth observation in that way. So that’s it’s been not straight to space, it’s been going way around through biology.
Andrew Dubber
Right? Yeah. So I mean, it’s not a natural thing to imagine if you’re really interested in animals, you should join a space agency.
Tobias Edman
And no, but when I am at the space agency, I think it’s brilliant. I mean, it’s the from now I can see clearly how I ended up where I ended up in a way. So it’s a really, that’s, I think, that’s the beauty of working with space, or working with the space infrastructure and data from it, that it’s, you can use it if you’re interested in nebulas as far far away more interested in to see how how does the world actually work? at the surface? You can use the data for that for all so many purposes,
Andrew Dubber
right? Just out of curiosity. I mean, I, I’m aware of European Space Agency, I’m aware of NASA, I’m not aware of how the different nations of the European Space Agency sort of link up together because you’re from the Swedish National Space Agency, yes. Is their does every country have their own space agency, and then you all kind of team up in this kind of, I guess, the Avengers of space
Tobias Edman
AI, it’s more or less, more or less like that actually, not every country has the space agency, it could be a minister, for example, that is responsible or some other organisation. So for some organisation, for some countries, it could be the National Agency for innovation and industry or something that represents them in the European Space Agency, it’s countries coming together to achieve larger targets than they could on goals, and they could achieve it by themselves. Right. So it’s really about European cooperation.
Andrew Dubber
Okay, and so by cooperation, you mean there’s a sharing of data, there’s a sharing of resources?
Tobias Edman
Yes, everyone puts into it to build this spacecraft, which means some of the projects are so huge, so no nation could, unless us could buy them.
Andrew Dubber
Right. And, and so what’s, uh, you know, what, are some of the big ambitions? When you when you go, Let’s all make a spaceship? Somebody has to ask, Okay, I’m gonna go to the money. Why are we doing this?
Tobias Edman
Yes. And then it’s always I mean, part of it is, of course, part of it is we are actually doing it because we can do it because this I mean, the curiosity, curiosity about space, and but the
Andrew Dubber
answer can’t just be because science and and we’re gonna find out yet?
Tobias Edman
Oh, no, no, no, no, of course, not only but part of is it, we build it, because we can build it. And there are strong interested to just show that we are able to build this. But as it moves, most of the especially in Earth observation, it’s science based, and it’s based on the need to know the status, say to our planet, and to understand the processes of the plant planet, and what’s happening with climate change, and all the things that comes based on on that. So it’s really about understanding the earth.
Andrew Dubber
Is there that sort of exploration spirit that you hear? I mean, you think of, for instance, you know, the Apollo missions and those sorts of things, which is about kind of humans going out into space and conquest and adventure and those sorts of things. Is there an element of that to it?
Tobias Edman
Yes, of course. And I think that’s, that’s the part of doing it because it’s possible or just testing to see Can we do this pushing the boundaries. So it’s part of it’s definitely about pushing boundaries. And part of it is about getting good data to understand the system so and I, I kind of like the mix of it. Because otherwise, if you didn’t push the boundaries, then you wouldn’t be able to get the interesting data that you need for global sustainability and So that you can use for really, for the public benefit, actually. So it’s it’s a dualist. But I think it’s interesting. I think
Andrew Dubber
the interesting thing from the point of view of your job description is that you have all this data. And and I guess part of the question is, what else can the state to do? What else? Can we find out? What else can we do? How do you go about sort of interrogating that sort of amount of data,
Tobias Edman
we are setting up the space data lab in Sweden, where we put a lot of data data data centre, and then we will give access both to the data and to the computing power, together with AI competence from AI, innovation, Sweden, so we’re trying to make this space AI data lab to really make it easier
Andrew Dubber
when you say give access, give access to whom
Tobias Edman
give access to anyone interested, actually, so it’s about we are it’s we want start with free and open access, we will start with opening up for developers and for different hackathons, and for governmental use, and so on. And then hopefully, when we get use in it, and we can build the bits and pieces that makes things easier, and we should be able to give fairly free access,
Andrew Dubber
how far could you push this idea of open data or open collaboration or bringing people in to sort of work with the space agency,
Tobias Edman
I think it would be really interesting to create some kind of open spacecraft, that you have this parse of the satellite as an open product, or open design, which then could be used by others. So that you don’t need to invent the whole step of it. But you’re, you can go and say, Okay, I have these demands. I love this kind of this kind of sounds, and so on. And then there is already a satellite base that you can use, and then you can order it from, from the industry. And not only the one industry that there was specific that one, but like, yeah,
Andrew Dubber
you’re not talking about downloading plans for a spaceship off the internet and 3d printing the parts.
Tobias Edman
It could be. But it’s I mean, often it’s more demanding than just 3d printing something. I mean, Facebook has this open server where they created a server platform, how the service should look and so on. Right, and then they made it freely available. And that could be made for a large part of our spacecraft as well. But you made it make the design of it freely available, then you still need to have the I mean access to laboratories and clean rooms and a lot of
Andrew Dubber
a lot of exploiting materials as well.
Tobias Edman
Yes, yeah, a lot, a lot of difficult things would would need to be done. But it would be interesting to see what could be made with this kind of could be part of an industrial command or something, that you really share the design of things, and then you can evolve it together and work with it, because presumably,
Andrew Dubber
all of the bits of a spaceship, quite proprietary, and and sort of, you know, locked down by a particular organisation.
Tobias Edman
Yes, that’s, that’s the traditional way of doing it is that a safer way of doing it? I think it’s a way of being assure that if you make for the space agencies, if they make an investment or what to call it that to make, they are funding something. And they know that they are funding the companies in their own country, or the companies within European Space Agency and so on. And then the value remains in the company. But it’s also somehow an old fashioned way of doing it. So it would be interesting, there’s a lot of talk of new space and being agile and being able to send up small satellites. And I think that within this small space, constant new space concept, it could actually be possible to have this open space concept to making a doula data more feel available, but also making space technology
Andrew Dubber
more available the hardware itself,
Tobias Edman
yeah, the hardware itself and make it easier to know what kind of hardware you should use and and towards it. And then I think the market could be growing with that. So that you don’t lose any value in in the different value chains.
Andrew Dubber
Your Own Private satellite.
Tobias Edman
Yeah, it would be fantastic with a private satellite. But it’s difficult if you have to invent it for yourself. For sure.
Andrew Dubber
Yeah. Presumably, it’s it’s not going to be a cheap option, even if you do get all the parts downloaded.
Tobias Edman
No, it will not. It’s a lot of really expensive metals involved. And
Andrew Dubber
presumably, they could get a lot of industries into space that aren’t currently
Tobias Edman
Yes. And you could may get the creation or the crafting or the spacecraft could be made much more cheaper and you can have more, more different industries going into the creation actually.
Andrew Dubber
Right. I guess that’s sort of the point of the story where Music Tech Fest comes into the picture. What was it about MTF that sort of drew you because you, you were involved, and you seem to be sort of engaged in it? What was the thing that sort of made sense to you?
Tobias Edman
At first, actually, I must admit, I didn’t understand a thing. It was like, Michelle phoned and asked her, oh, we would like access to subspace data for this music thing. And I was okay. That’s interesting. Now, I was pink really. And then it was, I think it was, it was actually a huge success. With help, we made a smaller API giving access to the data through Google Earth Engine. And the nice thing was that this API, this was, it was actually really used. Otherwise, it’s kind of difficult to put up the space data and you say, Oh, we want to have a hackathon or something. And everyone is a bit reluctant. Because it’s not that easy. But when it came to music, it was first you have the data. And we made it easy to access it. And when people accessed it, they made music of it. And I mean, music, it all is art. So it’s was no one could make no mistake. It didn’t matter how you did it. You know, I could say that. Have you made that piece of music from that satellite image? That’s not possible. That’s that’s wrong, actually. Because if you had made a land cover classification, or you had made something for forest or anything, that could easily be said, Oh, no, that’s actually wrong. That’s, but with music, nothing could be wrong. So it’s really opened up the usability of the data in a really interesting way. I think,
Andrew Dubber
right? The usability is an interesting thing. But But I guess somebody coming to this sort of fresh would go, yes. But how is that useful? How’s that something that you think is a good outcome?
Tobias Edman
Because it’s, I mean, it’s open up the total new dimensions, you could use the data to describe a feeling or mode, for example. And then it was one group that made it they made a different kind of soundscape. So you could say, for the from different cities, globally, then you could actually, I mean, you could use in the satellite data, you could learn which kind of music people in different areas are listening to, then you could make music lists, for example, based on in which landscape or is it on the seashore? Or is it in the forest, and then you can get that information really quick, for example, or so that I think you can actually make some kind of art products from it, you can make music that resembles the landscapes. And then it’s also this aspect of it, that it’s actually really fun that you can really play with it, you can have, I have this input, and I get this output and it has a connection in it’s about creating that connection. And that would be the same case for other application, I think as well, you need to have the date and an output they need to create it. Because you don’t need to be afraid in the same way. When you create art. It’s more forgiving. I would say
Andrew Dubber
yeah, there’s no wrong answer. But But the other the other side of it, I guess from a pragmatic perspective is people seem really comfortable with the idea of visualisation of data, and creative visualisations of data. It’s just the idea of translating to sound is something and music is something that’s not probably that done as often, I guess,
Tobias Edman
yes, I think Yeah. And when you have this set of images, it’s so obvious to make the visualisation, I would say that what we see in Google Maps, for example, we see that we see the data, it’s actually from an analysis point of view, it’s kind of flat, you’re taking out a lot of information. So that’s also just being able to make something else out of it to extract other information at different layers from it. I think that was, that’s why I mean, we were really happy about it.
Andrew Dubber
Judging from your own perspective of having seen this data of how the earth is progressing, and how we’re getting on and movements of landscapes and all those sorts of things. And we Okay, here, or are we going to have to pack our bags and get on some of these spaceships and go somewhere else?
Tobias Edman
I think they’re comparing to other places. This is the best place we know. Definitely. I think I Santos I use this image from, from Apollo, when they see the surface of the moon. And then you see the earth at a far distance. And the moon is really grey and sterile. And then you see this blue marble. I mean, it’s it’s amazing. And it’s so obvious i i would i would really long home all the time if I was on the moon in that landscape, and then a sword when I saw the earth coming up, and I guess I’m under on face, actually.
Andrew Dubber
Yeah, absolutely. So what’s the trajectory that gets you from this sort of kid who’s interested in animals and biology and these sorts of things, to now being head of innovation for National Space Agency, there’s got to be something in between those two things. I mean, studying really hard, I guess As a kind of part of that going and getting a PhD and yes, and science and those sorts of things, but there’s a bit in the, in the middle that are missing that you you sort of arrived at the Swedish National Space Agency fully formed or you, you know, you have a path within the agency. How does that work?
Tobias Edman
No, I’ve been an agency for one and a half year now. Okay. So I’ve been working as consultant working with geographic analysis and optimization. And then I had to start up for two years. And I think that’s the key to getting into the, to the space agency that had this startup innovation background, which I think helps me to understand what’s needed for startups to actually succeed. I mean, everyone can’t end up at the space agency, some need to be successful as well. So hopefully, I can help them with that.
Andrew Dubber
It sounds like a different kind of success. But the idea of space data being the basis on which new startups and entrepreneurship as founded as a really kind of interesting thing, it’s not something that I guess a lot of people sort of think of, and a great way, but do you make that data available to sort of, you know, entrepreneurs and people who want to start businesses in a particular way, in a form that they can use that they can build on top of and create new businesses? I mean, is that what it’s for? Is that the mandate? Yes,
Tobias Edman
yes, it is, actually, that’s one of the goals, we have to make it much easier to access data and to make services based on it. And also to make some kind of, it’s much about making also kind of market, as it is now there is of course market. But it’s, it’s a lot of I mean, that’s where we are, it’s a lot of government money in it. And it’s not always that easy to understand where the financing are going and who I should talk to, and what to do. And so once we also have this base data lab, the one of the aims is to make a marketplace where you can actually get money to develop services, and then use them both for governmental use and for private and commercial.
Andrew Dubber
So what’s what’s the hope with the space data lab? I mean, just that people use it? Or is there a sort of an end game in mind?
Tobias Edman
Yeah, it’s to improve the use of space data in the society. And that’s the main goal to have more more public benefit from space data to make sure that it’s really used. That’s, I mean, that’s the endgame of it. That’s the target. One part is to make it easy to access and to develop services under and then to have both large and small companies working in the area.
Andrew Dubber
And I guess the other question I would have is how innovation is defined in terms of your job? How do you know when innovation has happened?
Tobias Edman
I think it’s when you have a viable business, then you have an innovation, I think, before you have a viable business done, you have an idea. And it’s a lot of focus on ideas. And I tried to work with her being a lot of focus on making actual business out of the ideas. But it’s I mean, you need to have ideas to make make the business, of course, but you can’t stop with that idea. You need to see how can I make a viable business out of this?
Andrew Dubber
And is there a mechanism to support that?
Tobias Edman
Yes, we have together with the European Space Agency, we have the EAS business incubators, which is a startup help. And then we also have innovation programmes at agency. So if there are good ideas and development, then you want to make do to create a business, then you can always ask us for support for it.
Andrew Dubber
And of course, we are now on the steering board of the Industry Commons Foundation.
Tobias Edman
Yes. And that’s really interesting. It’s, I think that it’s a huge potential in how to work with IPR, and so on to make sure that you can invent something that is later use. I think it’s I think this can be really interesting for the space sector, as well to be able to licence things between each other in a good way.
Andrew Dubber
Fantastic. And work in partnership with other industries, as well.
Tobias Edman
Yeah, absolutely. Because the moment I mean, it’s it’s kind of difficult to be expert in everything and know when to licence and when to not licence and how to shower and how to make everything work. So I really looking forward both myself to learn more about it within within the sector. And I think it’s a good opportunity for that space, as well to working with it,
Andrew Dubber
Fantastic. Tobias, thanks so much for your time.
Tobias Edman
Thanks. Really nice being here
Andrew Dubber
That’s Tobias, admin the head of innovation for the Swedish National Space Agency. And that’s the MTF podcast, as we mentioned to be us is on the steering board of the new Industry Commons foundation that’s grown out of the MTF innovation ecosystem, and which is now registered in Stockholm to foster collaborative innovation and bring those new ideas to market and if you want more information about that Just check out industrycommons.net. If you found this interesting, feel free to share, like rate and review, and we’ll catch you soon. Have a great week. Cheers.
