Björn Ulvaeus - One of the Bs
Björn Ulvaeus is well known as one of the Bs in ABBA. He’s also a music technology investor and partner in Auddly, an end-to-end music rights application and tool for managing songwriting splits.
He talked to MTF Director Andrew Dubber about his career, music production gear, digital avatars, the downsides of fame, the role of technology in creativity, what it feels like to suddenly have complete artistic freedom - and why he wants to share that feeling with his fellow songwriters.
AI Transcription
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
sweden, songs, benny, songwriter, people, music, pop, swedish, abba, eurovision song contest, english, sang, songwriting, record, band, guitar, singers, thought, stockholm, technology
SPEAKERS
Andrew Dubber, Björn Ulvaeus
Andrew Dubber
Hi, I’m Dubber. I’m the director of Music Tech Fest, and this is the MTF podcast. Now while I was in South by Southwest last week, I had the distinct pleasure of sitting down for an hour so with Björn Ulvaeus, well known Swedish music tech investor, film producer, stage musical composer and musical director, guitarist, record producer, songwriter, and former member of the hootenanny singers. He also had another band with whom he won the Eurovision Song Contest and had, to put it mildly, some hit records. In fact, they were one of the top five biggest selling artists in the world ever. We talk music production gear, digital avatars, the downsides of fame, the role of technology and creativity, what it feels like to suddenly have complete artistic freedom. And Auddly embedded app for end to end tracking of artist rights and songwriting splits such an honour to talk to one of the Bs in ABBA. Let’s start with a mic check.
Björn Ulvaeus
So this is how I talk roughly This is my level your level. Is that okay? It’s absolutely fine. You shouldn’t change it just for me. Oh, people say I have a radio voice.
Andrew Dubber
Did you miss your calling?
Björn Ulvaeus
Probably have Yes.
Andrew Dubber
Fantastic. Okay, well, we can just start Björn Ulvaeus, thank you so much for joining us in the MTF podcast. First of all, of course. Thank you so much for everything that you’ve done over the last however long it’s been it’s, it’s just an incredible contribution. Thank you. Is there something about Sweden, that makes what you did possible?
Björn Ulvaeus
No, I don’t think so. Because what we did was despite the fact that we came out of Sweden because back then, in 1974, when we won the Eurovision Song Contest, nothing out of Sweden was ever listened to in the outside world, you know, that we we actually sent, you know, demo tapes to record companies in Britain, America. Throw them in the garbage bin, they didn’t even listen. Well. The only one we got back was playboy records wanted to release a single. But so we won the Eurovision and that’s when the what they call the Swedish pop wonder started really, because then people, you know, suddenly, maybe it’s not so bad coming out of Sweden. And and I think we started something with Swedish songwriters and producers that the feeling that it could be done. But you see before then, people didn’t even think it was worth, you know, investing in because it couldn’t be done. And no one would listen anyway. Sure. And then suddenly, here we are, and it’s the other way around. Absolutely. Well, Sweden is one of three net exporters of music in the world. Yeah. And per capita, the biggest, it’s fabulous. I love it. So
Andrew Dubber
you’ve actually set the groundwork for a real kind of burgeoning industry. I
Björn Ulvaeus
don’t want to boast but but I think we did. Yeah,
Andrew Dubber
I think you’re quite entitled to. But what is it now about Sweden? I mean, I know that you’ve you’ve kind of opened those doors. But there’s something really special about Swedish, pop songwriting, pop production. It’s kind of it’s internationally huge. What do you think makes that still possible?
Björn Ulvaeus
It’s to begin with, it’s a small country with a small market. So it was always very clear, it’s always very clear to everyone that you have to reach outside. And also we have a tradition of long tradition of teaching English in school and Swedes, you know, you the ordinary Swede you’d meet in the street would speak English. So that’s a help. And what else is there just happens to be? It could have been Denmark, it could have been, but it is Sweden. And I you know, as little as I know, exactly why the episomes are still being played. As little do I know about why Sweden isn’t a net exporter of music. It’s very hard to explain. I don’t think anyone can write. I guess the way that the songwriting royalties are set up today.
Andrew Dubber
You would be one of the biggest beneficiaries of that, particularly in Sweden, but I get the sense that the system is kind of broken, and that’s something that you’re trying to do now is trying to address that. And tell us a little bit about that.
Björn Ulvaeus
Yeah. I’m as a songwriter and an artist. I understand the problems today of artists and songwriters not being paid because the metadata at source is wrong, which further down the line create conflicts. And people don’t pay out the money that you should be paying out, not because they don’t want to the Spotify is and what have you. It’s because they don’t know exactly who to send it to. Because there’s a conflict. One of the writers feels that he should have 25%. And the other writers feel he should have 20. And that’s a conflict. And, and when I was introduced to the idea of oddly, back four or five years ago, I saw I saw the problem being solved by Auddly, which is, you create the metadata at source during the creative process. That’s when you can, you know, you have a session you work together with someone for a day and the end of the day, you know exactly what the split should be. between you, you don’t even have to discuss that. But when a third guy comes in from Tokyo who put something on, then you can decide within the Auddly app, what the split should be. And suddenly you have a decision. And you have the truth about a song, not only the split, but you also have publisher, you have writers, you have the name of it, you can put the lyric and everything in there. And which means that this doesn’t have to be recreated a year later, when the song finally is released, which is what happened today through phone calls, emails, who did what was he on? Was he in on that? I don’t think so. Yes, I think he was, you know, that kind of trying to piece it together afterwards, which is so detrimental to and I know as a songwriter. When we started, you know, getting paid better than me. So that we had artistic freedom and financial freedom. That’s when we got better. That’s when we could spend days and days and days honing our craft as it were, you know, getting better at writing. And this is what I would only wish for today’s songwriters, they shouldn’t be in a hurry, they should get paid for what they do in time and quickly. So that they can spend time on what they’re best at songwriting, and develop the craft over them and develop the craft. Because it is a craft. It is a talent, of course something perhaps you were born with. But above all, it is hard work. And it is a matter of getting rid of garbage. In a way, you know, Benny and I threw away probably 97% of whatever we came up with, because it wasn’t good enough. I’m sure there’s a lot of digging through that just for but we never settled, you know, for for half good. When we knew that now, this is not quite where it should be. And I wish you know, every songwriter, that freedom, that space that time to be able to do that. And not release average stuff because he had someone breathing down his neck. Right. Right. I wonder where that comes from? Can I ask what did your parents do? And how did that affect where you’ve ended up today? I come from a small town, population 25,000 perhaps. And the south of Sweden. And my family was lower middle class I think. My my dad worked as a foreman on a paper mill. And my, my mom was my mom, she was at home. So there was no music really in that home. Not a musical family. Not really my my father played the mandolin and sang sometimes when he got drunk. But other than that, very little music. So I had a cousin who was very musical. He was one year older than me. And he’s the one who dragged me into playing guitar and starting bands and stuff.
Andrew Dubber
And was that encouraged?
Björn Ulvaeus
Well, yes, they they can see that I had a lot of fun and it didn’t hurt my schoolwork. So yes, they they were supportive. Fantastic. If you hadn’t just curious if you hadn’t ended up doing this, what would you have become? I had plans because I had two uncles who are very, very successful in the paper industry. They were industry leaders, right. So I looked up to them and I thought I want to be like that music was never, you know, even thought up. I don’t never thought it. So I was to become a civil engineer and and become like them an industry leader?
Andrew Dubber
Is that where your interest in technology comes from?
Björn Ulvaeus
No, I think it comes from actually when we, I started recording and producing in the mid 60s. And Pop Music has always been driven by technology. So there was I was sort of surrounded by technology in the studio. And it changed and new things came on on on the market. And we always used to get the latest, you know, Benny had the first mini Moog and, and stuff like that. The technology was part of what we were doing, it was a natural integral part of the music that we were creating. So that interest is as followed me ever since. Do you keep up? Or did you stop at a particular technology that you are happy with? No, I I think I kept up. You know, we we had the first digital machines, we recorded the last Abba album on on three m digital machine. And then afterwards, I’m kind of not not not hands on but but kind of know what’s happening. Sure. What’s your tool of choice at the moment, if you get into a studio? Well, it has to be a pro tool studio. Our sound engineering stock on words with Pro Tools, and I think it’s absolutely marvellous, the way he handles it and how quickly everything is done, in comparison to what it used to be. So that that would be my my favourite. And I’m, I’m, you know, I’m not playing guitar that much these days. And but Benny plays all kinds of keyboards, and he’s got everything all the latest stuff,
Andrew Dubber
right? Are you a gadget guy?
Björn Ulvaeus
Not really. No, I wish I’d saved a lot of the gadgets I’ve I bought over the years, but I haven’t, they could be in a museum. But sadly, it’s all gone.
Andrew Dubber
I’ve heard word of the idea of a tour of holograms. Do you want to tell me a little bit about that.
Björn Ulvaeus
Yeah, it’s not really. holograms, it’s it’s the idea of creating a digital copy of yourself at a certain stage in life. And with ABBA the ladies, I think were the ones who chose about 1979. So heads from 1979 on our created us. And it’s partly animation, but mostly digital. So it will be like a library of face muscle. And these digital copies can then sing whatever we like them to sing. Right? So we taking them. We don’t know whether it’s going to be a tour or stationary permanently. Somewhere in the world. We haven’t decided that yet. But that it will be like an attraction, a new thing. avatars, digital copies, singing the old songs with the old voices, but with the faces from 79 and it will show an attraction a kind of different experience. I I can’t quite describe it because it’s it’s, you know, technology where technology is right now. Right? And that’s what attracted us to it in the first place that it was so exciting. And we were the first ones to do it. Amazing. So almost like a kind of a living Madame Tussauds night. It’ll be on screens. Uh huh. But with live musicians. Yeah. But what you see on the screens will be about from 79, who will be able to interrelate with the audience in spooky ways. Right? Wow. And you will feel as though they’re there? Uh huh. Wow. I can’t believe that nobody’s turned to the avatars. You can have that. Well, a lot of people have called them avatars actually. Okay, that’s good. That’s good to know. I’m not the only one who thought of that. No. Now, Nick Kershaw once said that the downside of success is fame. Would you go along with that? Do you think fame is something that has been a problem for you because I mean, you are recognised absolutely everywhere. You Of course, and not that fun should these days, but but he certainly used to be that way. Yeah. No, I don’t think so. I mean, we were based in Stockholm, which helped. Because in Stockholm, people wouldn’t bother us. You know, we’d walk around the streets and everyone will know this is agneta and beyond, in the shopping, doing their shopping. Yeah, you know, and he hasn’t washed his hair. I didn’t care. I just decided it’s not going to affect my life should I will live as I want to anyway. And it would have been different, I think, had we been based in New York or London or some place like that, right. But in Stockholm, it worked. People were so polite. Yes. Interesting. Interesting. Do you still follow your revision? Not not that much. I maybe I will tune in and look at a few of the songs but I don’t. It’s too many songs. It’s too long. I cannot concentrate. I noticed that the Swedish entrance this year also wrote the British entrance, which Oh, yeah, yeah, I’ve read about that, too. That’s amazing. guy knows what he’s doing. Exactly hedging his bets a little bit. What What was the the moment for you? That you realised that you could pretty much do whatever you wanted? as a career along the musical journey, you could sort of go off in any direction. Was there a point that you thought this? Is it? I have complete freedom? Yes, yes. We, in one way, I felt that, you know, when we won the Eurovision Song Contest, I, I remember clearly waking up early The morning after thinking, Oh, my God, what has happened? Today, literally overnight, we have known all over the world. And, and yesterday, we were known in the in Sweden, and maybe in Northern Europe. But that was all. So that that was the first time it struck me. But then we had a tough time after winning, because everyone kind of assumed that we were a one hit wonder. And we were not supposed to be able to have a follow up because they never do do a show. And so we we had a struggle with the singles we released after Waterloo. We came back with SOS and Mamma Mia, in end of 75, I think also. So sometime in 76. Both Benny and I felt Yeah, we have complete freedom and we can you let our imagination free. We can do anything. And we want to develop you want to be different from album to album and to make people feel that we make such an effort in developing and getting better at stuff and, and changing and never staying the same. And that’s how we towards the end of the 70s. We started thinking, well, maybe we can expand maybe we can. drama and music isn’t a very interesting field. We thought, yeah, we have to do that. So we did. And but it’s it’s it’s all down I would say to that wonderful thing copyright. Because we had the freedom. We didn’t. There was no one telling us you have to be ready by Friday. You know, you had no, the songs is too sad. You have to make you have to write something upbeat. No one was telling us Sure. Nobody at all, which which was a marvellous kind of artistic freedom to have which I wish, you know, for any creator to have. You’ve you mentioned the drama side of things. Obviously, there are stage shows there is now a couple of films. Yes. Have you thought about games? Have you done games as their next phase? We haven’t done games yet. I guess we haven’t come across the right. the right people who are in that field. We’ve never been approached with it. I’m not a stranger to that. I think it’s a very interesting world. I would like to kind of get into that too. Definitely. It’s a new avenue, which we haven’t explored yet. Fantastic. I think Probably a lot of people listening to this. I’ve got just the Oh, yeah, yeah, maybe so you’re open to that. Yes. Is that? What are you optimistic about the role of technology in creativity? Do you think it’s sort of opening up new opportunities for people to come up with new ideas? Or do you think that people are using them as a kind of a shortcut? I both, actually, yeah. And it’s a shortcut in the way that it makes everything you do sound so good. from the word go. Sure. Imagine two guys in a cubicle with a stand up piano and acoustic guitar banging away singing some kind of a jibberish Anglo, like English gibberish. And not being very good singers. Uh huh. For those guys to get excited over something. Well, there’s only a good melody, only a good melody can do that. Uh huh. Whereas songwriters today can sort of play anything they do is already there, and they can mad strings, and they can add everything and make even their voices, you know, sound good auto, which makes? I think it’s my theory, it makes you settle for less when it comes to the actual song? Because it sounds good already, doesn’t it?
Andrew Dubber
Right. And do you think that that stops people from pushing a little bit further?
Björn Ulvaeus
Yeah, exactly. I don’t know if I’m right. But that’s, I know, for certain that the only way we could get a kick Benny and I was if we had written something really, really good, because it sure as hell didn’t sound good. One of the things that people observe about your songs is that, on the one hand, obviously, they’re incredibly catchy pop songs, but also they’re incredibly intricate, and, and thoughtful and complex. Yeah. To what extent is there a kind of a, is that the Abba trick is that there there is, there is the complexity hidden within the simplicity of melody. always searching for that wonderful, simple melody. That’s what we did. But that wonderful, simple melody doesn’t necessarily have only three chords, no more chords, and, and especially if you explore it in a studio, trying various styles and trying various ways of doing it. And above all, backing vocals, intricate backing vocals, things that you couldn’t write down as an arranger, but you can only try, you know, you’re doing something, the girls would do something. And you just say, No, try that instead. Just that note that. And suddenly something happens, right. And that’s where the intricacy comes from, I think, right? And harmony, particularly in harmony, particularly, right.
Andrew Dubber
Do you think I mean, you’ve you’ve had this incredible success as a pop band, and there have been a number of incredibly successful pop bands, do you think there’s still the opportunity for that to happen now? is there is there a possibility for there to be a next ABBA? With a kind of 35 or 40 year absolute success? Do you think that’s possible?
Björn Ulvaeus
Yeah, definitely. Of course, it’s possible. Why should we there is, there is someone out there as we speak, you know, it’s just a matter of finding them and then finding us and them having the right circumstances to grow and to become something. Because we were, you know, completely organically born if you want to have we were, I was in a band, and I was supposed to be a civil engineer, Benny was in another man band we met. We could just as easily not have met. Sure. And we found each other started writing together. And then suddenly, I meet this lady who happens to be a singer. just happens to be a very wonderful singer. And a few months after that, Benny happens to meet a lady also. And she happens to be senior. This is all coincidence all of it now, and as they were famous in their own right, the group was never discussed for You know, two or three years, we went on vacations together we socialised. But we never talked about forming something together, because they would go on their tours. And we would go on hours and, you know, and so forth. So, but during those vacations, we always brought guitars and we sang together. And it sounds good.
Andrew Dubber
Whose idea was it?
Björn Ulvaeus
No, it was. We were getting bored of doing the stuff we were doing this was in purely in Sweden in Swedish. And we wanted so badly to do pop songs in English. You know, more than anything. The Beatles had inspired us. And we were had, you know, to pay the rent. We had to do this stuff in Swedish instead. But we knew deep down we wanted to do pop in English. So as an experiment, we said, Why don’t we go in and do a pop song together? And, which was a song called people need love. From 72 was a minor minor hit. And even then, we didn’t start on a regular basis to work together. It wasn’t until I think 73 that’s when we started out as Agnetha, Benny, Björn and Anni-Frid. We didn’t have a name. Eventually, we had to decide on a name I think it was in in connection with the Eurovision 1974 we kind of had to have a name because that, you know, all our first names, it was too long, too cumbersome to say for DJs Sure, particularly English speaking one. Yes. And, and they DJs had started calling us by initial sort of hosting. So they started calling us up Really? Yeah. And we wanted to be cool, have a cool name, like, the Rolling Stones or something like that. But in the end, we didn’t have a choice. Because everybody was they were calling us out by anyway. And it’s a lousy name. But But, you know, once you fill it with something, it becomes, you know, different that’s taken on. I mean, even the Beatles is a is a terrible name. It’s a shopping bear name. Yes. And now there’s a museum with the band’s name on it. I mean, that that must be a strange journey. Yeah, it was a strange journey. But I, I was the one who, who worked with the content. And I did it because I felt I had to. They were building a museum of a museum in Stockholm. And they said the city wanted it. You know, we said yes to it. But then I thought, what if that is crap? What if that is bad? Yeah. I have to live with it. Because he’s going to be there for years years. So I got involved. And the way I handled it was that I looked at myself as, you know, kind of a historical figure. He was someone else. I was telling his story. Right. So that, that way I became more detached. And it’s fascinating stories. It’s interesting. And we’ve been there. I have, yeah, yeah. It’s fascinating. And one of the things that really strikes you about it is the distinct visual style that you always brought to the music music wasn’t just something that you listen to view, there was something that you watched. Yeah. And I think that was a real landmark thing that you guys did because, you know, sort of set the the way for things like MTV and those sorts of things. Yeah. Where did the idea for having like a distinct look like that come from? Well, in the beginning, we wanted to look as outrageous as possible doing the Eurovision Song Contest? Because we, the theory was that we would get noticed that way. And and even if we ended up number seven, we’d have a certain impact because people would remember us. Sure. And that was why we chose the song as well which was distinctly not your vision song material. Yeah. So that’s where it started. And then then it went on from there. We thought it was fun, you know, to have these strange costumes and, and and then changing them all the time having different looks. Yeah. It became kind of trademark. But then again, I think that our contemporaries, most of them did the same thing, didn’t they? I’m not sure. But
Andrew Dubber
I don’t know if to the same extent.
Björn Ulvaeus
No, maybe not. Maybe not.
Andrew Dubber
I mean, for instance, I live in Umeå. And there’s a guitars museum there. And hanging on the wall and pride of place, there was a star sh aped guitar, or a silver glitter.
Björn Ulvaeus
They did for me. Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Dubber
And that I mean, you look at a star shaped guitar. And of course, all you think of as Abba. Yes. So that that visual connection, I think it’s something that you did incredibly well. Yeah. And I mean, do you see that still happening today? Do you think this that
Björn Ulvaeus
it’s difficult today, isn’t it because nothing is outrageous anymore? It doesn’t matter what you wear? You. So it’s it’s difficult. But But I mean, we had our costumes, but have we had also was two fantastic singers, who happened to be stunningly beautiful at the same time? I mean, I was talking about organic in in the beginning. I mean, all this just happened. And it came together. And that’s the difficulty of something new happening, you know, all the ingredients have to be there, and it has to coincide and they have to meet and make this whole, which doesn’t happen very often.
Andrew Dubber
Is there anything you wish you’d done differently?
Björn Ulvaeus
We couldn’t. We didn’t quite know what our identity was in 74. Well, we a glam rock group. pop group, what what the hell? We didn’t know what we were. And that made it kind of difficult afterwards to follow up. Oh, and we chose the wrong songs. It was only with SOS and Mamma Mia, that it dawned on us? Yes, we are a pop group. Pure and simple. And I wish we had we could have found that out that earlier actually. Yeah. It’s nothing I regret but that it could have been. Had we been more clear sighted we would have seen no, we’re not like them, or they’re more than we’re this. We’re a pop group with European roots.
Andrew Dubber
That sounds like something you’re incredibly proud of?
Björn Ulvaeus
Yes, yes, I am. Yeah. Because we were all four of us fed, you know, from early childhood. We fed all kinds of music from all over Europe, from the radio and elsewhere. Which I don’t think that. Yeah, our English contemporaries or certainly not American contemporaries would have been right. They they were not exposed to Italian balance when they grew up. Probably not not here in Austin.
Andrew Dubber
So what are you listening to now?
Björn Ulvaeus
I’m, I’m I’ve just finished auditions in London for Mamma Mia! The Party, which will open at the Oh, two in London on the 19th of September. And it’s such fun. It’s a great a great thing I’m doing which also born out of curiosity and wanting to experiment and seeing Can I do that can can that happen? And I’m those things are irresistible to me. You know, once I once I see a vision of something, I just have to pursue it. The the films like The museum, I guess could have gone very badly. And yes, it’s such a relief, a relief that they’re so great. Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I mean, from the word go Mamma mia the musical which will be 20 years in April will landed in LA Yeah. 20 years. In April.
Andrew Dubber
That’s a career in itself.
Björn Ulvaeus
Yes, it is. But I mean, from the word go, that was an insane idea. It could have been tau it could have gone so wrong. Sure. I mean, could you write a musical backwards like that using existing songs? Oh, no. And done that? Yeah. Okay. Well, you have to try it but I was ready to pull the plug anytime during that process. Okay, I had I felt he was not good for for the group. But he turned out it has been it has been really good for for ABA. As well, and this way to branch out to try new territories is something I think that more groups than us could do. But maybe you don’t have the urge to do Oh, no, they don’t want to do it. But certainly the possibilities is there to branch out and try new territories with a catalogue of songs that is so well known. And it’s also, again, set a template for how these things are done. You did that with pop music, and 73. You done it with 74. And you’ve done it with stage musicals now as well. Other people are going through people’s back catalogues retrofitting stories around Yeah, yes. Yes. Everyone’s doing that. Some with less success. But yeah, it’s interesting,
Andrew Dubber
what are you most looking forward to.
Björn Ulvaeus
I’m looking forward to my next grandchild. I would have her in June, and she will be my eighth Wow. And it’s an extra bonus with her because it’s my youngest daughter, her first child. And she and her husband has taken over a restaurant hotel complex that I built in my old hometown, right. And they are the couple’s runs that which, which makes me very proud. And, and it’s, it’s kind of a such a wonderful thing to be able to come back to your hometown and do something for it. Something that means something for that community. And, and to come down to a kind of local level. And walk this the old streets of St. Louis can feel I’m, I’m grounded here, especially when you are on to such credibly global projects as I am with, you know, Mamma Mia! The Party would be rolled out in Berlin, Las Vegas, and all over the price and the avatar thing I buy is also global. And, and even oddly is global.
Andrew Dubber
Yeah.
Björn Ulvaeus
So that, that thing of coming back to your roots, and being able to enjoy that. And being able to get something out of that is wonderful.
Andrew Dubber
And now you’re a tech entrepreneur.
Björn Ulvaeus
Yes.
Andrew Dubber
Was that expected?
Björn Ulvaeus
No, I couldn’t say
Andrew Dubber
Because the launch for that is here in Austin tomorrow. What are you expecting?
Björn Ulvaeus
I’m expecting people in the music business to finally understand what it is that we trying to do. And I’m so proud that we have avid onboard, as as a partner, and universal showing the rest of the business. This is it. This is the future we have to go this route. In order for our creative communities to create even more and better stuff, because it’s transparent. It’s quicker and more accurate payments, stuff that is important to support the songwriter as I was, you know, explaining to us before, it’s really, really important to have that, at least some degree of security when you want to create something. Sure, sure. And I guess that’s something that you’ve arrived at yourself and are ready to share with a lot of other people. Yeah. Fantastic. Beyond thanks so much for your time today. Thank you very much.
Andrew Dubber
The brilliant Björn Ulvaeus of ABBA, and so much more. And that’s the MTF podcast, if you enjoyed and why wouldn’t you please send a link to someone share it on Facebook or Twitter, or just say nice things about it to your friends. Lots more brilliant guests in the pipeline and MTF events coming up in Germany, Croatia, Scotland, Norway, Sweden, of course, and more to come. But in the meantime, you have a great week and we’ll talk soon. Cheers.
