Peter Jenner: 50 Years
In this MTF Podcast, Ottiliana Rolandsson meets legendary music manager Peter Jenner and reflects on half a century with iconic artists, developing outdoor concerts in London parks - the spirit of rock ‘n’ roll - and data management.
“When I’ve become involved with people I thought would make me money, they never have. When you work with people because you want to work with them - then they’ve made me money.”
AI Transcription
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, billy bragg, artists, hippie, jenner, hyde park, tech fest, concert, band, music, billy, pink floyd, stage, notting hill, phonic, organise, paid, mtf, interested, avant garde music
SPEAKERS
Ottiliana Rolandsson, Peter Jenner, Andrew Dubber
Andrew Dubber
Hi, I’m Dubber. I’m the director of Music Tech Fest. And thanks so much for listening to the MTF podcast. Now one of the things we like to do at Music Tech Fest is try and get a sense beyond what’s happening right now in creativity and innovation, and put it into the kind of context you only get when you can step back and look at it over time. For this reason at MTF, Stockholm, we made sure we included some genuine pioneers in music and technology. People have been working on this stuff for 50 years or more. Peter Jenner was a first class economics graduate from Cambridge University back in the 60s, and by the age of 21, he was lecturing at the London School of Economics. After four years and despite not knowing a great deal about the workings of the music industry at the time, he left his job to go and manage an upcoming band he liked. They were not terribly well known, but they were interesting to Jenner because they use some unusual acoustic effects and experimental sounds and their music. That band was called Pink Floyd. Since then, he’s also worked with T rex, Ian Dury, Roy Harper, The Clash, The Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy, Robyn Hitchcock, Baaba Maal, Sarah Jane Morris, Denzel and Eddi Reader from Fairground Attraction, and perhaps most famously, Jenner has been the long term manager of Billy Bragg. These days, he uses that experience to advocate for artists in his work, championing digital rights and advocating for an international music registry. He joined us on stage and chatted about his career with MTF Ottiliana Rolandsson. But first he had something to say about the BBC r&d and the women pioneers of electronic music, from MTF Stockholm this is Peter Jenner.
Peter Jenner
I just wanted to say that I find it really interesting that Henry was doing what he was doing. As one of the first things I did when I was working with the Pink Floyd was to go to the BBC Radio phonics workshop, which was the people develop tour that a lot of those sounds which, you know, like the doctor who a lot of that stuff comes from the phonics workshop, which I suspect is the Henry is in the success of that. Anyway, I just wanted to say that a lot of the flow of information which is in there is very interesting, because we as the with the Pink Floyd, were interested because of having heard bits of Stockhausen and stuff like that, so we’re interested in avant garde music. And so we went to radio phonic workshops where they were doing avant garde music with people like Delia Derbyshire and things. So there’s a sort of a continuity. And I think, just as a sort of final sort of note of as it were, my father was a vicar. So a bit of sort of religion in here is don’t underestimate the value of people like the BBC doing pure research. Because it from there, you get these things, there’s no question that the Pink Floyd would not have happened without the BBC Radio phonic workshop, albeit a small contribution. And I doubted the avenue that they were making that contribution. And I doubted Stockhausen ever knew about the contribution he was making. So you know, anyway, still… Yeah, happens. It’s that sort of mix of stuff coming in and having the openness of brains to sort of see that that might be interesting.
Ottiliana Rolandsson
And with that said, for you guys who don’t know who Peter Jenner is, he is a legend. And he’s a manager, managing a groups like the Pink Floyd. And one is like, oh, also the class and many others. And he’s also been behind the mover and shaker behind, for example, 1968, the festival at Hyde Park. And this is a man who has been at the eye of the storm for half a century now. And it’s a great honour having you here and to speak with you and for all of us to take part of it. And with that said, I am so curious as to what you have gained or learned from your life experience, how you see analyse or tap in to the huge societal changes that you actually have been part of.
Peter Jenner
God. I don’t know I just I just do things I think I’ve I’ve always been sort of fairly uninhibited. I mean, I can’t even say like the Hyde Park concert. Why do we do High Park concert? Well, first of all, I’d read that they did these hippie cons. I was involved in hippie early hippie movements in the UK I’ve read about hippie stuff going on in San Francisco, where they did big open air concerts. I then walked across. Subsequently, I was walking across Hyde Park with my then my wife, my late wife. And we saw a music stand, you know, music, you know, place where bass bands paid, it was a sort of, you know, a van thing, you know, and brass bands are played there. And there would be deck chairs. And this was really for old people to sit there and have bands playing brass bands playing on power on power and sort of military stamp and things like that. But what I thought was, hey, a stage in a park. And that was what got me I thought by Why don’t we do a popular music concert in Hyde Park, because I was also at that stage beginning to manage the Pink Floyd. So that might be really good promotion for the band. So we could do as a live free music concert in Hyde Park. Now as these things are, I had certain connections from sort of weird family connections. And so I wrote to the Ministry of Culture at the time early on, this was in 65 66, and said, Why don’t we do a concert in Hyde Park, instead of just being military bands? Why don’t we do something for the young people? And the answer was, yes. And they put on they let the you know, they provide this stage. Now what was the stage, the stage was the the that meant the stage by that high, which they use for Scottish dancing. But the point was, it was a stage. That’s interesting, because defined that a band was there. And then it was also in a place called the cockpit, which probably was originally a cockpit, it was by the serpentine. And those are sort of here. It’s a natural sort of small natural amphitheatre. So it was a perfect place at the parks people got what we wanted to do. And they SAS that that was the place to go. And that’s where we did the first concert in Hyde Park. And those concerts went spectacularly well to the ended up I made about two years later, or something or couple of summers later, to the stones in Hyde Park, which is probably the biggest concert that there’s ever been in London in some people probably, and I think had an enormous impact. So there’s things like Glastonbury and the big festivals, the idea of having lots of bands on a stage and having people just sitting down and being very relaxed about things and and having a very open view. So that was that was now Why did I do it? I did it partly because I wanted to promote the acts I was working with. I was working with a Pink Floyd bigger promotion for them, I had some other bands I was working with. So they were the opening act. So it was a, it was self interested in some senses. But it was also saying, Well, how can I use? How can we use what’s available to promote our artists? How do we get over things? How do you how do we develop things? And so for that the Floyd it was the idea, how would we develop the idea of what we were doing? Put it into a board or environment or wider stage? So it says just, if you can do it, do it? And don’t? You know, we didn’t ask how much it was gonna cost. It was free. We didn’t pay the park anything, the park just did it because they thought it was a good idea. The bands did it for free, because they thought it was a good idea. We did it for free, because we thought it was a good idea. The police did it for free, because they thought it was a good idea. So I think when and that’s part of why it was so great. And it’s also why I mentioned the BBC, because the BBC were doing things because I think that’s a great. I mean, what what you were talking about was clearly nothing to do with the development programme it was let this looney go off into his crazy thing with the lexus, and see what he comes out with. And I think that is spirit of rock’n’roll. That is what really is valuable. And that is what I’ve been involved in,
Ottiliana Rolandsson
it seems like to be involved in, it seems like even just listening to you speaking about these things that your mind works on several dimensions or levels at the same time. And I’m curious as to obviously you have been a very successful manager, you’ve done a great job and you have lasted for a very long time. And done great things in that arena. So the part on the one hand, the business side, the industry side, then you have the creative, artistic side. And then you also have the interpersonal side dealing with these people that I’m sure weren’t just like, easy, breezy to have to have to you know, relate to all the time. So how do you sort of like summon all of that inside yourself?
Peter Jenner
Oh, God knows. I just because it’s fun. You know, I mean, I think That’s the point if you’re doing why are you doing it? in some senses, I’ve rarely done things to make money. But I’ve always hoped that it would make money. You know what I mean? I’m not sort of holy Joe. But I it’s not. So, you know, every now and then I try and plan to, you know, like, if we’re doing a tour, you know, I’d think about, you know, what sort of audience we could expect and what sort of prices and what the costs would be. So in that sense, I can be a sort of rational human being but in terms of what I do is something which appeals to me so you know, something which tickles my fancy in some way. And I guess I’m just I’m just self indulgent.
Ottiliana Rolandsson
If someone would be a manager out here, what advice would you give them?
Peter Jenner
My advice to anyone only work with people you think of really great? Are you really like? Are you really think they’re interesting? I mean, some be positive. And I think that when I become involved with people who I thought were going to make me money they never have when you work with people, because you want to work with them, then they’ve made more money,
Ottiliana Rolandsson
right? And is there any particular like, like, challenge over this half a century? And one particular sweet spot?
Peter Jenner
I think what you’re always looking for something, which is not like everything else, that’s what I’m always interested in suddenly, which is, which is different, which has an originality, but which appeals to me, but which isn’t like another? It’s so it’s not like another rock band. It’s not like another sort of disco artist or whatever. It’s something which, which sparks me or advances my curiosity.
Ottiliana Rolandsson
And in this day, and age, with the advances of the digital age, and technology, and so on, is there. And if so, what a difference from back in the day, when you start first started breaking ground, and now in how we deal with artists and audiences.
Peter Jenner
I think that dealing with audiences is trying to do something which people like and getting them to know about it and getting them to come. I mean, that’s a sort of pretty standard thing. What do you do with is something which interests, interests, you interests me, which I can sort of work with and feel that I want to spend time and I think probably the most important thing was that there was someone I could hang out with, often, you know, someone that we could talk about things. And, you know, like one of the arts I work with a lot with Roy Harper, and he was a great bird. Like, he was very keen on birds and things. So I got an interest in birds and things. with Billy Bragg, we were very involved with sort of trade unions and politics and miner’s strikes and things like that. So they knew it provides a different sort of interest structure, you know, with, with a class that was being involved with sort of the whole notion of punk and being spat at, and that whole thing and of walking it like you’re talking I mean, that’s one thing, which I would think is really important to be a successful artist walks it, like he talks it. In other words, if you say, I’m a man of the people, you better be a man of the people. There’s no point in saying, I’m a man of the people and then getting into a limousine and going off to your expensive dinner, you better be a man of the people. And that is by doing things which you want to do which feel right that you often find the most successful things, you know, I mean, in a bizarre way to probably the most important thing that Billy did was to do lots of gigs for nothing. During the miners strike, you know, that we had set up that he would go anywhere to do a gig providing they would pay his, his his train fare, and give him a place to sleep and a meal. And that was the fee. And then he’d go anywhere. And that was really important. So he went all around the countries of his art people. And as a result of that, he would, he would stay at someone’s house. So he got to know them. So he got to know the local people. So he built a sort of network of people who didn’t necessarily particularly like his music, but they liked him. So then, therefore, they were interested in finding out more about his music and getting people so in some senses that a lot of the Billy Bragg thing was spread in that very organic way early on. And, you know, back to BBC, the key the key person was john peel back in those days, if you’re a new artist, and we had someone I was working at a sock record company, and Billy was sort of with the label, but I you know, not without being not paid formally. And I didn’t know how to do promo but there was a guy from his who was interested in his publishing and he got together with me and we said, oh, let’s try and work on this together. So you do the promo. I said to him, and he he Then phoned up Billy a couple of few days later and said Billy john peel wants a vegetable biryani get it for him. So john Billy when I got a vegetable biryani took it down to the BBC knocked on the door went into giampiero session, you know, because some I probably with the the plug I helped went in and gave him a vegetable biryani. John peel always remembered that and john peel was always support to a billy Billy Bragg because of that. And it’s that sort of thing, which never would have got from a professional promotion person, right, they would have taken john peel out for an expensive meal. But the idea that the artists would go out and buy a vegetable biryani and bring it round to the BBC, that put it onto a human scale, like they have public very important.
Ottiliana Rolandsson
And that comes then to also could in this day and age, do you think that a person an artist can become commercially successful? granted that they have something really genuine? And and they have a talent in what they are doing? Can they become commercially successful analogue not engaging in social media? Or is that something that is just part of the game right now? What do you think?
Peter Jenner
I suspect you have to be involved in social media in some way or another? It’s like, you know, could you have ever been a successful artist in the 60s without relating to the music papers? In the end? No, you start maybe. So then they pick up on it, there may be their second round. But I think that in some way, the social media, well, maybe it’s not from you communicating out there, maybe it’s because social media picks up that they’ve heard someone and they think it’s something they talk about it, and then maybe they organise the artists to come and do something with it’s that sort of interaction between things, which is interesting. You know, when it says sort of, like, I’m going to advertise, I’m doing a gig is going to cost you so much at the door. That in a way is something we can all deal with. But it’s not very interesting. It’s when you have something which is more sort of organic, then it becomes much more interesting. I mean, I started doing things with the London free school, back in the 60s, which was some sort of strange, hippie conglomeration. We’re all just out of university. And we were going to change the world. And we’d read about what was happening in California. And so we were doing all this stuff. And so my father was a vicar, clergyman, he had a parish, he had a parish hall. And as part of what he did, he used to organise dances or youth clubs, because that’s what you did. If you’re a vicar, and you hope to catch some of those people and get him to come to church and put money in the collection. And, and generally, you know, the spiritual thing as well, I mean, not just the money, the money was a consideration. And it was that sort of the idea that you could get money on the door for things if you could get the community and so he would get the people from the parish who want to come to a wish Dr. would all get some money. And that would give a little bit of money to the church, and they’d sell teas and sandwiches or something. And so that all help fund the church, his church activities. So in some similar way, when we were with the London free school, we were trying to reach out to the Notting Hill area when it was really slummy and try and see if we could get some sort of social education or spiritual thing going social educational thing going. And we realised after a bit that we could all sit around and talk about it, but we didn’t have any money, so we couldn’t do anything. Then I said, Well, look, there’s a church hall right in the middle of the area, right? So why don’t we do a gig there? So Oh, that’s so we did a gig in that church hall, which is right in the middle of Notting Hill. And that was the first UFO which became the whole sort of underground scene and, and sort of, you know, in London, the whole hippie stuff. We evolved around that event, because we all came in, everybody sort of knew each other. And that was a so what do we want? If we’re having some people coming in? We better have something for them to come to. So we put a band on who what Who should we get? Oh, I said, I don’t know I this this band that I’ve seen. I think I’ve been to see them and I could get them to come over. And so that was built the Pink Floyd came over. So the Pink Floyd with a band that was playing for these people who owe these sort of hippies who are organising some sort of social scene. Another thing we organised there was the Notting Hill, Notting Hill Carnival was one of the early things that we did about They’re I don’t know how much we really did it. But it was something that we were aware of when we stimulated them, not just us, it was other people as well. But so if you have an environment and you respond to ideas, and you just do them, Mm hmm. Like what he’s doing with the lexus is doing things, he doesn’t know what he’s doing. That’s what’s so great, you don’t know what you’re doing, you just do it and see what happens.
Ottiliana Rolandsson
And it’s a bit also what you mentioned earlier, how the essence hasn’t changed. It’s just how we do it, in some ways. Yes. And now, unfortunately, we have run out of time, I want to highlight something for you who have an interest in the following, grab Peter Jenner and speak to him because he’s very passionate and knowledgeable about yet another subject. And that is collecting data so that you artists can be paid. This is very, very important, because we all need to put bread on the table, right? And Peter Jenner knows a lot about this and have many thoughts of this. So if this is something important to you, please speak to him. And with that said, let’s give an audience
Peter Jenner
gonna say you don’t register in some way and keep, keep some identification of what it is you’ve done and who’s done it, you will never get paid. If you’ve got some sort of identification, and you’ve got it sort of registered in some way, somehow, you have a chance that if it’s successful, and people like it, and they listen to it, then you will get paid or you’re better keep hold of what it is that you’re doing and building it and developing it. But that’s a whole thing. I can sit down and talk about hours about data and registers and things like that. That’s what I’m doing now with the government. Yeah, okay, we’re doing, we’re trying to work out what sort of registries we need, so that people in 2025 will get paid. In other words, what’s the sort of structure which can maybe adjust to the changes that will happen between now and 25 and still be
Ottiliana Rolandsson
great? Peter Jenner, thank you so very much.
Andrew Dubber
That’s Peter Jenner, and that’s the MTF podcast for another week. Hope you’re enjoying these. Thanks so much for listening. And you know, you can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, all usual places, where Music Tech Fest wherever you go, easy to find, and of course, share, like review subscribe on any of those, and we’d be very grateful but do come and say hi, talk soon.
